Quoting hal9g:

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Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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but it does say "Use the "Credited As" field where the actor's name differs from the credited name". if there is no variant it should not be used.

It does not say if there are variants of the person's name.  It only says if the actor's name differs from the credited name.

An argument could easily be made that the actors even if someone is always credited one way, that their "name" could actually be different (including commas, for instance).

Hal:

So WHAT? Can you or Tim offer PROOF that Lee Simon Jr. is not the way his name REALLY is presented, or are you making assumpptions. We do NOT standardize names.     Man, you really do get thick when you want to attempt to argue with me don't you. I feel like I am arguing with an unarmed man.

Skip

Quoting T!M:

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While I can agree with that in most cases, I really can't see applying it to something basic as this. I feel we need some form of consistency. We have decided years ago on a way to enter these suffixes. Why should we depart from that for a few specific cases?

I guess I could ask the opposite question...

We decided years ago to enter the cast 'as credited'.  Why should we depart from that now?

Hal:

WHAT do you NOT comprehend. We had a poll recently specifically addressing STANDARDIZATION of names and it was soundly defeated. It is those kind of comments and clear lack of comprehension that gets you blasted, Hal. Yopu aren't trying to understand, you are not trying to engage in a rational ciscussion, you are simply trying to disagree with me. How many times must we have these same discussions, just because Tim doesn't get it, or didn't see the poll about standardization. All you people are doing is making the Rules more and more complex, I could speculate as to why because I do have an opinion but i won't.

We do NOT and never have standardized names, but to attempt to corrupt the Common Name system which Ken designed and he specifically designed for multiple variants of the same name to create a non-existent variant just because a user wants to try to standardize it is inexcusable. There can be NO variant name as the actor was in ONLY one film in our database. Therefore there is NO common name.

Skip

Quoting T!M:

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Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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you are only going by your opinion...

I'm not going by my opinion - I'm going by the forum consensus that we ALWAYS precede Jr./Sr. suffixes by a comma. Lee Simon, Jr. deserves his comma just as much as Robert Downey, Jr., Ed Begley, Jr. etc. Again: we desperately need some form of consistency. If it's just a free-for-all, things will become a mess. One user will have 3 "Robert Downey Jr." credits in his database, and just 1 "Robert Downey, Jr." credit, while this may well be the opposite for another user. If we're going down this road, different users may start submitting different "common names". I really don't see why this is necessary. This was one of the few things we all agreed on, and it worked perfectly (proven by the fact that my my original "Lee Martin, Jr. [Lee Martin Jr.]" update was approved with a truckload of 'yes'-votes).

Again: we have a few standards that we all agreed on, like the parsing of initials I mentioned earlier, the fact that we DO use a comma preceding Jr./Sr. suffixes, the fact that we DON'T use a comma preceding numerals (i.e. it's "Joseph C. Nemec III", not "Joseph C. Nemec, III") etc. Of course we can throw all these conventions out the window and just use the most credited form, but I for one really like a bit of consistency. And judging from these poll results, I'm certainly not the only one.

@ Martin: It's true, sometimes I'm a stickler for the rules, and sometimes I prefer common sense. This is just something that I find hard to let go. When I started using DVD Profiler, I entered these suffixes without the comma - probably because that was how IMDb did them. After being "educated" - by Skip himself, among others - I relented, and reformatted all my suffixed cast and crew names to include the comma. Now that the majority of the database is finally set up that way, I see this update from Skip changing it back... IMHO, that's just too much - I give up!

I agree, if only that this consistency would stop all the arguing. It's not as if we create a different name with this, which is also why Credited As can be ignored for this purpose.

Quoting hal9g:

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Quoting richierich:

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And for the record I agree with Pete, the tool has been provided by Ken to use and the rules state how to use it.
The only thing you can do Tim IMO is to perhaps make a recommendation for a rules change and see how people feel about it

RR

Unfortuantely, the Rules DO NOT tell you to use the most frequent occurrence that you find using the tool if there is a variant! 

getting back to this... it may not say that in the rules... but Ken was pretty clear when he announced the tool in this thread.

Quoting Ken Cole:

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Quoting m.cellophane:

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Cool. Thank you.

So how do we use this? I looked up Barbra Streisand (260 hits) and Barbara Streisand (15 hits). So I just state in my contribution notes that I looked it up in this lookup, state the results, and we're done with documentation?

In general, yes.  There will be cases that require a bit more perusing to make sure there aren't false matches.

So right there he did clarify that we are to use the most credited form. but to be careful there aren't false matches.

Quoting skipnet50:

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I think this ends the discussion and Tim is WRONG, grossly WRONG as the vote regarding suffixes demonstrates

I currently looking at THIS poll, and those results are clearly a bit different... Anyway - I've presented my arguments, and I don't intend to keep running around in circles to explain this any further. The poll results give me enough ammo to stick with my 'no'-vote, so that's what I'll do. Please feel free to bicker on about this for 20+ pages - just do it without me.

except this poll does not over-ride the rules which tells us when we can use the credited as... and standardization is not what credited as is for at this point.

Quoting Unicus69:

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Quoting hal9g:

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We currently do not standardize names since it is not addressed in the Rules.

I beg to differ.  It is addressed in the rules.

For any film with standard credits, take the actor information from the end credits only, with names and roles listed exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited.  Exception: If the credit information is entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead.

Copy 'exactly' means we do not standardize them, we copy them exactly as they are in the credits.  There are two exceptions to that rule.

1. When the credits are in all caps
2. When the actors name differs from the credited name.

And, before you say it again, I disagree with the 'it says actor's name not name variant' argument as well.

Cedric The Entertainer's name differs from his credited name...should we standardize that?
Mos Def's name differs from his credited name...should we standardize that?
John Wayne's name differs from his credited name...should we standardize that?

Do we really want to head down this path?  I sure don't. 

You are talking about "credited as", and I agree.

I am talking about "common name".

There is no standard in the Rules for "Common Names".