Quoting GSyren:

Quote:
My interpretation (and yes, that's what it is) of what Ken has ruled is that he does not consider the quotes to be part of the title. So, if they're not part of the title, then there's no reason that they should be included in the Original Title field, either. But that's just my take on it...

That isn't what he said though, is it?  Don't include quotes ONLY IF they are around the ENTIRE TITLE.  Tad bit of a difference there, eh?

Quoting DariusKyrak:

Quote:
I keep reading about this "accurate data", but have yet to see a definition of what makes it accurate. The Birds vs. 'The Birds' - which is accurate and WHY?

Also, why is it so important that it is accurate? Surely it's more important that it is of use to as many people as possible?

I've seen an accusation that people are more interested in manipulation of various forms than debating. Well, I've seen the claim in this thread that 'accuracy' should be the goal and and implication that this thread is attempting to undermine it / circumvent it / whatever.

Well, I made a counter point which I (partially) quoted above. You want to debate, let's debate!

Stuart

Darius:

The specific point you bring up would relate to what yardstick you want to use to determine accuracy, This has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere. "The Birds" would be based on FACTUAL data that is available On Screen, On Cover(Rules) or both. The Birds would be based either on the fiction that it is called by everybody The Birds, why is this a fiction, we call a Jaguar a Jag but that does not change the FACTUAL name of the car, it still remains a Jaguar. "The Birds" would also be a FACTUAL name which can be based on one's own eyesight. The other possiibility to support the The Birds would be the actual Copyrighted title which is NOT fiction and can be verified in most instances, in this case the US Copyright lists The Birds NOT "The Birds". Various forms of real data can be debated, but FICTIONAL data based on someone's opinion cannot and does not belong in the discussion...HAL

Skip

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
Darius:

The specific point you bring up would relate to what yardstick you want to use to determine accuracy, This has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere. "The Birds" would be based on FACTUAL data that is available On Screen, On Cover(Rules) or both. The Birds would be based either on the fiction that it is called by everybody The Birds, why is this a fiction, we call a Jaguar a Jag but that does not change the FACTUAL name of the car, it still remains a Jaguar. "The Birds" would also be a FACTUAL name which can be based on one's own eyesight. The other possiibility to support the The Birds would be the actual Copyrighted title which is NOT fiction and can be verified in most instances, in this case the US Copyright lists The Birds NOT "The Birds". Various forms of real data can be debated, but FICTIONAL data based on someone's opinion cannot and does not belong in the discussion...HAL

Skip

Then if I read that right, the example of 'The Birds' vs The Birds is inconclusive as to what is 'accurate', because you can pull the title with quotes from some official sources (cover and title-screen) and without quotes from another official source. In other words, we've failed to answer the question of 'which is accurate', and neither has the 'why' been addressed.

Also, the question of 'why is accuracy more important than usability' is still unanswered.

If defining 'accurate' is so difficult and is still ambiguous (as you imply with "what yardstick you want to use to determine accuracy... has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere"), then surely 'accuracy' (at this point) is a meaningless concept. Which again, brings us back to the point of why is it so important?

Stuart

so... has 'The Birds' surpassed H/B/C as the most discussed topic yet? 

Quoting DariusKyrak:

Quote:
Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
Darius:

The specific point you bring up would relate to what yardstick you want to use to determine accuracy, This has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere. "The Birds" would be based on FACTUAL data that is available On Screen, On Cover(Rules) or both. The Birds would be based either on the fiction that it is called by everybody The Birds, why is this a fiction, we call a Jaguar a Jag but that does not change the FACTUAL name of the car, it still remains a Jaguar. "The Birds" would also be a FACTUAL name which can be based on one's own eyesight. The other possiibility to support the The Birds would be the actual Copyrighted title which is NOT fiction and can be verified in most instances, in this case the US Copyright lists The Birds NOT "The Birds". Various forms of real data can be debated, but FICTIONAL data based on someone's opinion cannot and does not belong in the discussion...HAL

Skip

Then if I read that right, the example of 'The Birds' vs The Birds is inconclusive as to what is 'accurate', because you can pull the title with quotes from some official sources (cover and title-screen) and without quotes from another official source. In other words, we've failed to answer the question of 'which is accurate', and neither has the 'why' been addressed.

Also, the question of 'why is accuracy more important than usability' is still unanswered.

If defining 'accurate' is so difficult and is still ambiguous (as you imply with "what yardstick you want to use to determine accuracy... has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere"), then surely 'accuracy' (at this point) is a meaningless concept. Which again, brings us back to the point of why is it so important?

Stuart

The Title is The Birds, without quotes...according to the copyright data.

Some only wish to apply this logic (Ken's logic, BTW) to the "Title" field and an entirely different set of logic to the "Original Title" field.

Go figure!

Quoting DariusKyrak:

Quote:
Then if I read that right, the example of 'The Birds' vs The Birds is inconclusive as to what is 'accurate', because you can pull the title with quotes from some official sources (cover and title-screen) and without quotes from another official source. In other words, we've failed to answer the question of 'which is accurate', and neither has the 'why' been addressed.

Also, the question of 'why is accuracy more important than usability' is still unanswered.

If defining 'accurate' is so difficult and is still ambiguous (as you imply with "what yardstick you want to use to determine accuracy... has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere"), then surely 'accuracy' (at this point) is a meaningless concept. Which again, brings us back to the point of why is it so important?

The Birds is not enclosed in quotes on-screen and is therefore of no relevance to the topic of this thread...which is whether titles which appear on-screen surrounded by quotes should be entered as such in the original title field.

The issue with The Birds is whether it's possessory credit (Alfred Hitchcock's) is part of the title. For the versions discussed so far in the forum, according to the new updated rules, the answer is: The title is just The Birds. Whether that's accurate based on any other lookup that one might choose to do is irrelevant since the current rule provides the answer.

Quoting m.cellophane:

Quote:
Quoting hal9g:

Quote:
The Title is The Birds, without quotes...according to the copyright data.

And on-screen as well. The Birds has nothing to do with the topic of this thread!

True enough!